watervole: (Default)
Judith Proctor ([personal profile] watervole) wrote2010-01-07 10:06 am

Heating and Insulation

This is what ten inches of loft insulation does (photo taken this morning):



The neighbours, as you will observe, have somewhat less.

We've got insulation in the loft floor, and also between the rafters in the roof.  We've got floor boards over the floor insulation, so we also have full use of the loft as storage space - and the ceiling insulation means that although the loft is cold, you don't freeze when you go up there in winter.

Interestingly, my mother-in-law (the incomparable Molly) has a similar roof effect, although she has no insulation at all.

She lives in a very old, half-timbered house.  It can't have things like cavity wall insulation. She turned down an offer of loft insulation from the council as she didn't feel it would benefit her, and there is no double-glazing.  She's 80, lives on her own (with her dog) on her pension, and you're probably now imagining a wretched old lady shivering in the cold.

Not Molly.  We phoned her last night just to be sure she was okay, though we knew it was almost certainly unnecessary.  She replied cheerfully that she was fine.  It was so cold last night that she actually turned the convection heater on in her bedroom for the first time in ages.  She's spending the day in the lounge and only bothering to heat the one room (coal fire), thus saving costs on heating the rest of the house.

She laughingly pointed out that she still has snow on her roof whereas her neighbours with insulation had none left on theirs.  She says they waste heat, heating every room and having the thermostat set far too high.

Molly just adds a thick wool jumper, wears warm socks, and only heats the room she actually needs.  (and with a coal fire, that room is very comfortable).  She'll keep warm by walking the dog, eat well by digging up a few veg from the garden, and hopefully be fit and well for many years yet to come.  (though we're all grateful to the friend who drove her to the shops to stock up on essentials just before the snow hit - Molly has a lot of friends, she's lived a long time in her village and has helped many local causes over the years).

Therefore the Proctor family tips on saving heating bills (and CO2 emissions) appear to be: insulate as well as you possibly can, only heat the rooms you really need to, and wear warm clothing.

[identity profile] robinbloke.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 10:22 am (UTC)(link)
Wow! I really should lag my loft properly before I do the windows; that's a very graphic que!

Mind you I quite often just stay in one room and keep that sealed and heated instead of the whole house :)

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 11:19 am (UTC)(link)
Hehe, ten inches is so little it's almost illegal in Sweden! But then we had -26 C here yesterday morning...

[identity profile] j-lj.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 11:59 am (UTC)(link)
One of the first things I did when we bought our house was to get the loft insulated. Last year we floor boarded and intalled a loft ladder to use it as storge space and our roof is covered in snow where the houses next door have snow less roofs.

On the central heating front we are a lot less greener than we should. I like to keep the house nice and warm and the heating has been on 24/7 since December. But we do have Thermostatically-controlled radiator valves which keep the rooms at a set temperature.

I grow up in a house with a coal fire and only the living room was warm in the winter. So thats why I think I keep our central heating on all the time in the winter. I can't stand a cold house!

There is no reason why all homes should not have adequate loft insulation installed. There are plenty of free schemes and Govement grants availble for this.
ext_15862: (Save the Earth)

[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Loft insulation is massively more cost effective than double-glazing. That's why double-gazing salesmen have to work so hard.

Loft insulation doesn't have massive profit margins and so lacks big sales teams.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:09 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL! We could learn a lot from you.

Is it true that new houses in Sweden have to have ground -source heat pumps? They're only easy to do if installed from the beginning, but they're also supposed to be very effective.
ext_15862: (Save the Earth)

[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Have you got lined curtains? If you have all the rooms heated, you can still make quite a difference by making best use of your curtains.

Sounds like you did a good job with the loft insulation! I agree with you that people don't really have any excuse - I think most people don't actually know how much they have and believe they have more than they actually do.

(I acutally find I don't sleep well in warm rooms, so I always have the heating off at night)

[identity profile] mirabehn.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, that is an extremely impressive difference. :-)

[identity profile] robinbloke.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm looking for quotes now! :)
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Way to go!

When we did the layer under the roof, we used a thin, white hardboard to cover it. Gave us a level ceiling so we didn't bang our heads any more, held the insulation in place, and made the whole loft a lot brighter due to the gloss white colour of the board - which was an unexpected bonus.
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[identity profile] cdybedahl.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)
AFAIK it's not a requirement, but you get tax breaks to install them (and they work so well) that almost all new houses get them anyway. And they can't be that hard to retrofit, because I know several people who has done that.
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[identity profile] cdybedahl.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 12:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I suppose it's an effect of different climates, but all English houses I've been to have been so badly insulated that they'd be actively dangerous up here. When the temperature outside hits -30°C you need good insulation and heating. Stockholm doesn't get that cold every year, but often enough that it needs planning for.

I've been pondering what's the biggest difference between indoor and outdoor temperature that people expect over the course of a normal year in different places. Here, I'd say we expect a difference of 45-50°C at some point during a normal winter (-25 outside, 20-25 inside). I suspect that in England the expectation is 20°C or less.

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)
What Calle says. It's not mandatory but becoming increasingly common. However, it's less common that I thought according to official statistics (http://www.scb.se/statistik/_publikationer/BO0801_2009A01_BR_BO01BR0901.pdf -- see Table 3.1.2, page 95, "One- or two-dwelling buildings by type of used energy". Look at year of building, Byggår in the middle, at 2006.

Endast olja = oil only
Endast el = electricity only
Olja o biobränsle = oil and bio fuel
Endast biobränsle = bio fuel only
Biobränsle o el = bio fuel and electricity
Olja, biobränsle o el = oil, bio fuel and electricity
Berg/jord/sjö, vp = ground/lake, air heat pumps
Annat = other

Converting is easy provided you have a heating system that pipes around hot water in radiators. Then you just switch from an electricity or oil-fired boiler to water warmed by ground-source heating. However, if you have radiators powered by direct electricity -- like we do -- then it's more complicated. Tearing up the floors to install floor-based heating is an option we're considering, but it's expensive and messy.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:19 pm (UTC)(link)
It may be the tax break that makes the retrofit possible. We looked into it a couple of years ago, and the cost was very high.
ext_15862: (Come with me if you want to live)

[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I think we need a delegation of Swedes to come over and tell us how to do it. We're fumbling around in the dark compared to you.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting - the heat pump % is small, but growing rapidly.

I understood that the expensive part was the heat pump itself. It has to go deep in the ground and digging the hole is much cheaper when you have all the digging machinery there to start with.

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
IIRC, the pump and drilling the hole down into the rock layer costs about 15,000 pounds or somewhere in that region. Not terribly expensive, but it takes 10-15 years before you recoup the money. Possibly a lot longer in England, I don't know.

[identity profile] steverogerson.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:34 pm (UTC)(link)
The problem in my house is the back door in that there are slight gaps around it that let the heat out. All the windows and front door seal properly and there is loft insulation. Can't afford a new back door though.

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Haha, an Eastercon talk, perhaps? Maybe we can get our Eastercon expenses covered by the Swedish Trade Council? :D
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:41 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL! I wish I was in a position to call £15,000 'not terribly expensive'.

I'd like to have done it for my son's house, but he wouldn't have been able to afford the rent increase necessary to pay for it.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Draught proofing strips are dirt cheap. Go down to B+Q and get some, and a cheap curtain rail. Then go to Oxfam, get an old curtain and hang it on the rail and that will stop anything that gets past the draught excluder.

Reminds me, I really need to replace the strip around our front door. It's about a decade old now and part of it's come away.

(How thick is the loft insulation? Most people over-estimate what they have. It's worth actually going up there and measuring it.)
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Are you coming to Odyssey? Would you like to be on the 'Cutting your carbon footprint' panel?

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, it would of course be terribly expensive if I couldn't recoup the money within a few years. In the typical case, heating costs around £2,000 per annum here, and that's brought down to less than £1,000 with ground-source heating. So you take a loan using the house as security and pay it off slowly, and after a number of years your costs are substantially lower AND you emit less CO2. Win-win.

However, if you can't afford the increased instalment payments, it's difficult. And I realise that it's probably less rewarding financially in England.

[identity profile] steverogerson.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Never bought draught proof strips - is there anything I need to know?

[identity profile] jophan.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 01:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I am, but no, I know virtually nothing about the topic except for what I have been forced to learn because I own a house -- and I think I have exhausted my knowledge here. So I'm not panel material for this topic, I'm afraid.

Perhaps [livejournal.com profile] cdybedahl is? Have you ever been to an Eastercon, Calle?
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[identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com 2010-01-07 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Of course about the best loft insulation is made from recycled newspaper mushed up and blown into the space between the rafters. A bit messy and difficult for the man-in-the-street to find an installer, but it has a higher insulation result and it doesn't take up non-renewable resources like most other forms. I can't remember what's it called off hand, but I found out about through the Centre for Alternative Technology (http://www.cat.org.uk/)

Another good insulation material is sheep's wool.

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