watervole | Star Trek and Fraternisation

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Star Trek and Fraternisation

Star Trek military is loosely based on the US Navy, but there are some major differences.

It's interesting to speculate as to why.

A conversation with a friend sparked off a few thoughts.

The original Star Trek series aired in 1966. I'd wondered (given the lack of fraternisation restrictions in Trek compared with newer shows like Stargate) whether Trek predated women in the US Navy.

Murray did some searching on the US Navy's website, and found a lot of information here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq48-1.htm

It appears that women were first recruited in 1908 as nurses, then more were recruited for clerical jobs in 1917, just before the USA entered WWI. They were, however, kept ashore. It was only in 1979 that women were posted aboard ship, and then on ships that would not be in combat. Such postings did not take place until 1994.

Which seems to back up my premise. Women on board ships came long after Classic Trek (so all credit to Gene Rodenberry).

We know relationships were allows in Classic Trek as there's a marriage between two crew members in one episode. (and indeed, with a mixed crew on a five-year mission it really could not be any other way). The more important consideration is relationships between people of different ranks, specifically officers and enlisted men. (And doubly so if they're in the same line of command)

I think being a Stargate fan made me especially aware of the line of command issue. The ongoing 'almost romance' between Carter and O'Neill was frozen for season after season for this reason (and also, because the network knows that UST sells better...).

So, where does this specifically relate to Trek?

Kirk for example, in the Classic series, was wise enough never to have relationships (canonically) with members of his crew. A wise decision and one the US Navy would probably have approved. It's very hard to avoid the appearance of favouritism, it's probably bad for morale and it may well affect the decision as to who to send into a dangerous situation.

See the US Navy on their fraternisation policy. Note that it isn't just sexual relationships that are prohibited, activities like lending money also constitute fraternisation between officers and enlisted man.

So, Kirk is in the clear. He may still be James 'T for tomcat' Kirk, but he only shags women outside his crew. He might have gotten away with a relationship with a bridge officer as they're officers, but probably not a very good idea in practise as they're direct line of command.

However, my big issue with the movieis Spock/Uhura. This is probably a viable relationship when they're both serving on Enterprise, but was totally wrong at Starfleet Academy. The US Navy list of prohibited relationships specifically includes instructor/student, and it's very clear that their relationship was ongoing when she was still a student. And it's also clear that the relationship did impact on their actions - which is precisely why such relationships are forbidden. Initially Spock does not assign her to Enterprise in order to avoid the appearance of favouritism - when her standing in the class should have sent her there. Then, equally badly, Uhura uses their relationship to change Spock's inital decision.

It's a lovely romance, and I actually quite like the relationship between them, but I am very very surprised that Spock, who would be totally familiar with both the regulations and the ethics of such a relationship, would ever have allowed it to happen.

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People are flawed - Spock in particular has issues.

This is enough to cover it for. Plus of course we have no idea what sort of regulations exist. Given the current losening of regs in our armed forces there's no reason not to expect the same 300 years hence.

And certainly when I was in Star Trek fandom from the late 70s onwards there was a strong belief that Roddenberry had set up Star Fleet to be non-militaristic and that the hierarchical "ensigns and officers" were necessary for an organisational structure, but that they were meant to be scientific and diplomatic missions, and only had weapons for defence and protection.

Certainly there were no "soldiers" in TOS, just security officers who didn't seem particularly well armed or protected given how often they were killed!

And the Kirk/Rand thing in series one of TOS seemed fairly canon, though the Solow & Justman book said that Rand was dropped perhaps to give Kirk more romantic possibilities.

Plus of course, in the new movie, the point was that Uhuru and Spock were supposed to be on different ships ... as one commenter on the net says

"This is just speculation on my part, but i believe the Spock/Uhura relationship started as a teacher/student relationship. I just recently re-watched the film and i believe it is alluded to in their conversation about why she wasn't assigned to the U.S.S. Enterprise. She mentions she was his student, suggesting he was an instructor at Starfleet. The film also mentions that Spock designed the Kobayashi Maru program, and that he was the program's administrator for four years-basically, from the time Kirk enrolls into Starfleet Academy, or a year before that. Since Uhura is on the same transport as Kirk, it seems unlikely she was enrolled before then." http://www.startrekmovie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8254

Well, I think it's pretty clear that the cadets in the bar were already familiar with each other and so could have been "end of first year", so that (for a four year programme) Kirk and Uhuru would have have been at the same graduation point (as Kirk was finishing in three years). I see Spock as a TA sort of role, older/wiser (from his Vulcan training and age) and working with the cadets. If he was not in her direct line of command then it may have been permissable, or at least excusable among consenting adults, and they were not meant to be serving on the same ship.

That's my take on it anyway.

I never saw Kirk as sleeping with Rand, just admiring the view. I think she fancied him, but never saw anything beyond that.

It's very definitely alluded to in Uhura's conversation with Spock. That line about 'oral dexterity' or whatever the exact phrase was, is loaded with double-entrendres.

I agree with you that Uhura had completed her first year when she first met Kirk.

Teacher student is unacceptable almost everywhere (teachers get fired for it), but if he was a TA it might just about be okay.

Actually that was "aural sensitivity" and had to do with detecting anomalies subspace transmissions. "Aurla" =/= "oral. And she used the past tense, implying she was no longer his student, and the website had her working as his TA in a Phonology course.

(Why Spock is teaching Advanced Phonology and Morphology is a bigger question, but it may have been the writers were going with Amanda Grayson's background as a linguist from the novels, and maybe he specialsied in it because of his mum?)

I thought I must have misheard 'aural' as 'oral' so I listened extra carefully the next time I saw it. It still sounded like 'oral'.

That would be because there is no pronunciation difference between the two words, at least in most US accents. Which is why the line works both as serious dialogue (as Uhura meant it) and as a double entendre (as I am sure the writers knew audiences would hear it).

In TOS, Kirk tells Spock that there are no regulations about him (Spock) dating a fellow crewman, however, that always felt so very wrong to me. Spock is the First Officer, everyone is in his line of command. He and the captain shouldn't be dating, anyone in there, end of story.

I remember in SG1, the Air Force threatened to pull out their support when the romance storyline came to light, because it would have been a court martial offense and they would not approve it.

I just put Spock/Uhura down as one of those JJ insanity, like the fact that children are running the enterprise.

Link to US Navy, she b0rked.

Je ne comprend pas...

He means it's broken. When you click it, it goes to a 404 error cos the anchor tag is "http:// http://www.ig.navy.mil/Complaints/Complaints%20%20(Fraternization).htm"

if you remove the first http:// you outta be fine?

Ah! Thanks. That was a very helpful comment. Now (hopefully) corrected.

Oddly we were watching the 'wedding' episode (Balance of Terror?) the other day and concluded (both from the fact that the Captain of a starship has the authority to conduct marriages, and from the series premise) that Roddenberry owed more to British seafaring practice (and 18C exploratory voyages) than uS miitary naval practice. The presence of women on board British Naval vessels (as wives, family and 'girlfriends' if not as serving officers - and the wives frequently served as nursing and cooking staff) was common throughout British seafaring history.

Or maybe this is another instance where the UK audience for a US show accepts stuff as normal practice which the uS regards as daring.

I agree, that's far better as an analogy.

This is a very interesting issue. I haven´t thought of TOS for many years - I mean I only read/cosummed the stories but never tried to look at TOS in a similar way. My last "serious" thoughts died some 15 years ago...

Likewise. I'd barely discovered Trek fandom before Blake's 7 came along and swept it away. I never analysed Trek at all until the movie came along.

The movie grabbed me in a whole new way.

The catch for me is that in order to write for something, I have to have it all clear in my own mind. Thus, I'll spend a while yet sorting out all the background before I make much more progress on the story that is slowly struggling to be written.

You see, and that is what I am unable to do, to sort the things out and be "logical". I am quite a chaotic, impulsive person, and of course the results of my writing attempts are idiotic :-)
I will be a happy consummer of your new excellent story!

So, I don't think they were in a romantic relationship prior to the events of the film. Uhura kissing him and comforting him in the 'lift has genuine stakes and something at risk, for me, if she's taking their friendship and taking it to a new place. Not if it's only about revealing an established relationship to the audience.

Plus I don't think either of them would have entered into a relationship while he was her student. I don't think it's quite a power imbalance issue once she's a teaching assistant, but even then... I didn't actually take the "appearence of favourisim" scene to be a sign they were romantically involved. Just that they were very close and he was concerned that any appearence of impropriety would damage her career.

The closest thing I can find re: fraternisation was Archer and Hernandez, who kept their relationship a secret when he was her CO, and actually didn't actually continue it once they were of equal rank until after the Xindi. But it's hard pinning down regs, since the only times we see fraternisation it's eitehr characters of equal rank, or characters not in the same chain of command, and almost never captains ever.

(I had a post in my el jay (http://taraljc.livejournal.com/1330593.html), where people chimed in to help me fuill in canon gaps, after I first saw the film and was working on 'Ad Astra'.)

Edited 2009-06-22 19:20 (UTC)

The book of the movie is very clear that they were already in a relationship.

For me, it was the scene where she approaches Spock about her posting. The dialogue they give her is very unambiguous. Something like "Did I not demonstrate extreme oral sensitivity".

I remember almost jumping out of my seat at that. There's no way she's talking about language at that point.

I actually kinda disliked the novelisation (I'm a creaky old lady who misses Vonda McIntyre's novelisations cos they were WIN), and felt like Alan Dean Foster put that in because he couldn't get his mind around the Spock/uhura relationship and it only made sense to him if it's established relationship. But the actual scenes in the finished cut of the film are ambiguous as to when and how it started, and I think can go either way.

Plus the 'lift and Transporter Room scenes have a lot more impact for me if the first scene is Uhura making a choice, and the second scene is definitively Spock making a choice. That is where their relationship takes a different path than Spock Prime and uhura Prime, for me, with the Battle of Vulcan as the catalyst for change in how Spock views himself.

In TOS, becasue he can pass for full Vulcan, Spock Prime (at his father's urging, if we take "Yesteryear" as canon) chose to be More Vulcan Than Vulcan, and to the exclusion of his human heritage until he died that one time and finally accepted the whole instead. This Spock coems to that a lot earlier in his life, and it all has to do with his relationships with his parents, and his parents relationships with each other. Reconciling with Sarek 8 years ahead of schedule vastly changes his perspective on both his parents marriage, and his human heritage.

Indeed. I don't take the novel as pure canon. I enjoyed it, but I use it as a guide rather than gospel (although I suspect he was mainly working from the script).
The scenes where Kirk thinks he's going to get a commendation for cheating the Kobayishi Maru are just plain stupid.

Things would work much better for me if I could see the relationship as established during the movie, but I can't see it that way when I try to.

The commendadtion bit is straight from Wrath of Khan. Because Kirk Prime did get a commendation for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru. But so much of the novelisation felt like padding to me, extending sequences that were tense and sharp on screen, and making them muddy and over-long on the page. And the dialogue didn't coem clsoe, except for maybe some of Uhura's OH SNAP bits from the first scene in the bar with Jim.

I mostly bought it in the hopes there would be more of the cut scenes material, but aside from the one Sarek and Amanda scene, that was about it that I could see. Gaila doesn't even have a name, the 7 ships destroyed at the Battle of Vulcan are never named, and most of why I buy novelisations is to check canon as I write, yet this one was so different from the film itself that I skimmed bits and have never reread since. But novelisations have always been considered fanon--I've been going off the film itself as the only canon that's actually binding, for when I'm writing.

I am genuinely looking forward to the DVD in part becasue I can't wait to see the arguments in some of the nerdier parts of the fandom for DECADES TO COME about the canoncity of the deleted scenes, writer interviews, and commentaries. Because I'm a dork that way.

Long time since I saw 'Wrath of Kahn'. Thanks for reminding me of that point, I'd totally forgotten it.

I know exactly what you mean about wanting novels for reference material. That's one of the reasons I bought it. I was after details like names of admirals.

I'm wondering if my hearing of 'aural'/'oral' is a US/UK accent thing.

I don't take novelisations as canon (possibly a legacy of reading the Blake's Seven ones).

And though I think the line may be a double entendre, in the sense of a joke by the scriptwriters, it certainly doesn't fit with my understanding of Uhura's character in this film that she'd say "I should be on the ship because I give good head", or that Spock would listen to her if she tried.

It makes sense to me that they were attracted but held back because of their official relationship - and also that Spock might use that as a cover for his own hesitation about the human-Vulcan issue. There was probably gossip, which may be why he was so sensitive to the appearance of favouritism - and she's calling him out on that by pointing out that it would be illogical to allow personal concerns to rule out the best-qualified person for the job (in the same way that it would be illogical to allow personal concerns to influence him to pick someone under-qualified). Uhura has the emotional confidence to see the whole picture and analyse it correctly; she's insisting on her professional status, not on any private claim.

This. Totally agreed on all points.

They wouldn't have had a sexual relationship before the Enterprise because it is out of character for both of them. And one can be concerned about the "appearance of favouritism" without being in a sexual relationship; being his best student could make people consider her a "teacher's pet" without there being any impropriety. And I agree, her argument to be let on board is basically "I am the best at this job, and it would be illogical for the Enterprise not to have the best", and Spock agrees with this.

My interpretation of the lift scene and the transporter-room scene is that both of them were attracted to each other before, but did not act on it until now. It makes no sense, character-wise, for them to have been in a relationship before, because I thought the whole point of Sarek saying "I loved your mother" was character-growth for Spock, enabling him to decide, "Yes, I am going to follow my heart, because there is no shame in following my heart." If he had already been in a relationship with Uhura, that whole scene would have been pointless. Whereas I thought the message was that Reboot!Spock is reconciled with his human half much much earlier than Spock!Prime, and that his kissing Uhura was a sign of that.

It just doesn't make sense if Spock and Uhura had been in a sexual relationship before the Enterprise.

That's a good point about Sarek's words to Spock. A very good point.

I'm hoping to see the film again next week, so I'll watch with that in mind.

That's one of the reasons why the line jarred so badly. I didn't see Uhura as someone who would trade on a relationship either.

I WANT to hear the word as 'aural', but I hear it as 'oral'. Maybe it's a US/UK accent thing?

Maybe it's a US/UK accent thing?
Yes, I think that explains it. Because the difference between "oral" and "aural" in some accents is so slight as to almost not be a difference.

I'm Murray, the friend Judith mentioned she was talking with about the above subject. As she said, I did a little research in terms of women serving with the US Navy, and its present policy on fraternisation. I agree with her about the Spock/Uhura relationship, as well as about the fact that Kirk is 'in the clear' because he 'only shags women outside his crew'. The problem, however, with Kirk only getting involved with attractive female humanoids on strange new worlds is that, due to the lack of cultural awareness, I can see him regularly causing international incidents, if not wars.

In the past many companies also forbid fraternization of the civilian sort. Today many companies and organizations recognize this is too much interference in peoples' private lives and that these policies were violated all the time. Now many private and public organizations ask that if their employees are dating or in a relationship that they acknowledge it with their supervisor and human resources person, stating that no one pressured anyone and that the relationship is consensual. This protects the organizations from harassment charges later. They don't need to acknowledge it to the office at large. This is a progressive idea and I would hope it would exist in the future ST universe as well.

Hi! Sorry for hopping over but I always like to see with whom I am talking, and finding a few mutual fandoms, I dug a little bit deeper.

I just wanted to say how nice it is to read a positive entry about the new movies for a change. Of course I don't know if your opinion has changed after the second movie, but at a lot of fandom places there is a lot of hate regarding this new timeline and only original Star Trek is considered good Star Trek.

While I am really looking forward to the third next week. It will be actually the first where I will go to the cinema. If someone had told me this one year ago I wouldn't have believed it. Can you believe that I only started to get into Trek fandom one year ago? The new movies made me finally check out the old TOS series. I grew up in Eastern Germany where we didn't have that on our TV screens. I also wasn't much interested in sci-fi anyway, I was more into the Wild West and also Sherlock Holmes.

Then Stargate came along, which I only checked out as I wanted to see what MacGyver was doing these days and which was the first sci-fi series I fell in love with and my first fandom with conventions and fanfictions and everything else.

After it ended I was occupied for years with Torchwood and Doctor Who, and now I am finally exploring the Trek fandom and buying all the action figures I can find.

Somehow I also had managed so far not being aware of Karl Urban, I really only got to know him through these movies and fell in love with him as well.

I'm so lucky to be just in time for the 50th anniversary with all its lovely events! We had William Shatner and Karl Urban among many others here in Germany in May. And Vic Mignogna.

I already converted vjezkova, now I am wondering whether I can convert you as well? ;) Have you heard about "Star Trek Continues"? I have become a huge fan of this. They have rebuilt the original Enterprise studios and are filming "new" old episodes, just in the same way and style and after 5 minutes you don't care anymore that it's not the original actors, as it's all so well done. If you like, check it out here: http://www.startrekcontinues.com/episodes.html

Also nice and quite refreshing that you are showing your face - nice to meet you! Even before looking at your profile, I thought "She looks like an English lady" ;) Here's me - just because I can ;)

(http://s137.photobucket.com/user/DieAstra/media/Fedcon%202016/01%20Karl%20Urban%20600%20x%20401.jpg.html)

Hi, you're welcome to drop by any time.
I like Classic Trek and I like the new movies. (I like Deep Space 9 best of all).

It always annoys me when people do the 'one true faith' thing and decide that all versions apart from their personal favorite are wrong and terrible.

I'm looking forward to the new movie, don't yet know when I'll see it.

If you like Stargate SFG-1 and have time to read a novel, try this http://archiveofourown.org/works/392002/chapters/643582 (I wrote several Stargate stories, but this one and it's sequel are my favourites)

I watched one of the Star Trek Continues episodes yesterday. I'll definitely watch more.

Karl Urban looks fantastic in the photo!

Hi again!

I read in your profile that you set it up so that only friends can comment, so I was surprised to find that I was actually able to but wasn't sure whether it would go through in the end.

So far I only saw the original Star Trek series, then the animated series and the original and new movies. What I have glimpsed so far of Next Generation, does not really appeal to me, and I am also busy at the moment catching up with all the older William Shatner stuff.

But I recently watched that one DS9 episode where they go back in time to the Tribbles. That was a fun one! And I must say that I really liked all the characteres and actors. I may be interested in watching more of this. I loved especially the humor - this is what I also loved about SG-1. Not sure if the whole DS9 series is like this or if this was a one-off, humor-wise?

I'll go see the new movie right on Wednesday, as I don't want to be spoilered when reading the internet. Also I will be on vacation the week after that.

Thank you for the link! That may take a while. But I always loved the Jack-Harry-dynamic so I look forward to it. I also am at AO3: http://archiveofourown.org/users/DieAstra

But I usually do shorter and fun stories. But mostly I am occupied these days setting up funny picture stories with action figures. If you would like to check them out, here is the Stargate list: http://dieastra.livejournal.com/24280.html

And the Star Trek list: http://dieastra.livejournal.com/141174.html

There are some more fandoms as well.

I watched one of the Star Trek Continues episodes yesterday. I'll definitely watch more.

Yay! I'm happy you like it! I also got the link from a friend. Which one did you watch? If you started with the first and already liked it, then I can tell you it just gets better from there. Like with every series, it takes a while for them to settle into their roles properly. My favorite are numbers 4 and 5. Number 4 even has Colin Baker as a guest actor.

When you are finished with the episodes, there are also some short vignettes and funny behind-the-scenes and outtakes videos.

Here's one of my pictures with Vic Mignogna. Even as a child he already made his first costumes and props and super 8 movies. Then he later studied it all properly and now has put together this wonderful crew. He's writing, directing, editing, and many many more things (also writing songs and playing the piano) and a really great captain. I hope they will find a way to continue with the new fanfilm rules.

He's also a very nice guy.

(http://s137.photobucket.com/user/DieAstra/media/Fedcon%202016/03%20Vic%20Mignogna%20600%20x%20403.jpg.html)

Edited 2016-07-17 15:04 (UTC)

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Star Trek and Fraternisation

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Star Trek and Fraternisation

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