![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Deep Space Nine and gender attitudes to sex and same-sex relationships
Cut for the few who really don't want to know.
Henry and I have been watching DS9 recently and we're now in the early 4th season and enjoying it.
Two good episodes recently: Indiscretion and Rejoined.
Given the nature of the episodes, Henry and I were speculating on the gender of the writers.
In the case of 'Indiscretion' I was firmly convinced that a woman was involved somewhere - not only is it a story about family, but it also involves a happily gratituous scene which is set up for no other reason than to give us a good shot of Gul Dukat's butt. (He sits on a sharp spike and has to borrow Kira's healing gadget to run over the injury)
I checked the credits - a joint effort between a woman and a man (I don't know if he's gay, but it reinforces my theory if he is).
'Rejoined' which features a very nice f/f kiss (even heterosexual moi enjoyed it) we reckoned just had to be a bloke. And it was.
One think I like about SF is that it can present a world where same sex relationships are not seen as unusual. When Dax asks Sisko for advice about the woman she's in love with, Sisko's initially negative comments are all to do with Trill customs. Never once does he even hint that an f/f relationship is wrong/unusual. Likewise, Bashir is talked into being a chaperone for the two lovers and acts as though f/f is perfectly normal.
Is it my imagination or do fans run to a higher % of lesbigay people than the population at large? Or is it just that the friends whose sexuality I know are all in fandom?
And if that is the case, is it because SF is inherantly attractive to differently gendered people because there are worlds portrayed that have different social norms? Or is it that fans themselves are more tolerent than the population at large? (Or are the two essentially the same thing anyway - ie. if we weren't open-minded, we wouldn't be attracted to all the different worlds)
The alternative is that fandom runs to the same % as the rest of the world, but lesbigay people are more able to claim their identity openly among fans?
Another question. On the evidence of the shows I know, f/f became possible on screen long before m/m. I'm thinking Ivanova/Talia, Dax and her 'former wife' and Tara/Willow.
I think Dr Who is the first m/m kiss I recall on mainstream TV.
Am I right? I can think of plenty of reasons why f/f would be out there first, but I'd rather follow on into that if I'm sure of my data first.
Henry and I have been watching DS9 recently and we're now in the early 4th season and enjoying it.
Two good episodes recently: Indiscretion and Rejoined.
Given the nature of the episodes, Henry and I were speculating on the gender of the writers.
In the case of 'Indiscretion' I was firmly convinced that a woman was involved somewhere - not only is it a story about family, but it also involves a happily gratituous scene which is set up for no other reason than to give us a good shot of Gul Dukat's butt. (He sits on a sharp spike and has to borrow Kira's healing gadget to run over the injury)
I checked the credits - a joint effort between a woman and a man (I don't know if he's gay, but it reinforces my theory if he is).
'Rejoined' which features a very nice f/f kiss (even heterosexual moi enjoyed it) we reckoned just had to be a bloke. And it was.
One think I like about SF is that it can present a world where same sex relationships are not seen as unusual. When Dax asks Sisko for advice about the woman she's in love with, Sisko's initially negative comments are all to do with Trill customs. Never once does he even hint that an f/f relationship is wrong/unusual. Likewise, Bashir is talked into being a chaperone for the two lovers and acts as though f/f is perfectly normal.
Is it my imagination or do fans run to a higher % of lesbigay people than the population at large? Or is it just that the friends whose sexuality I know are all in fandom?
And if that is the case, is it because SF is inherantly attractive to differently gendered people because there are worlds portrayed that have different social norms? Or is it that fans themselves are more tolerent than the population at large? (Or are the two essentially the same thing anyway - ie. if we weren't open-minded, we wouldn't be attracted to all the different worlds)
The alternative is that fandom runs to the same % as the rest of the world, but lesbigay people are more able to claim their identity openly among fans?
Another question. On the evidence of the shows I know, f/f became possible on screen long before m/m. I'm thinking Ivanova/Talia, Dax and her 'former wife' and Tara/Willow.
I think Dr Who is the first m/m kiss I recall on mainstream TV.
Am I right? I can think of plenty of reasons why f/f would be out there first, but I'd rather follow on into that if I'm sure of my data first.
no subject
Rejoined was one of Ron Moore's, wasn't it? (Ron Moore: excellent scriptwriter for both TNG and DS9 who more recently became chief producer and headwriter of the new Battlestar Galactica and pulled out a stunning first season for same.) (On TNG, he wrote among other things Tapestry, aka the ultimate Picard/Q episode, and did say Q was in love with Picard. Given that Q shows up in Picard's bed in that episode - no, really - I kind of got that.) But I must admit that my own guess as to why f/f made it to tv first is that male watchers freak out far less likely about two women kissing than about two men. Though there was freakage at the time Rejoined was originally broadcast. One of the most repellend letters said "what's next - Garak and a sheep?"
no subject
No, that's not the case. The reason is that the TV networks regard two men kissing as being more subversive than two women.
no subject
And when trying to generalise from fandom to the rest of society, there is a risk of selection bias. My experience matches yours, in that the fans I know are more open-minded than most people. But I know quite well that there are plenty of homophobic fans -- only they're the kind of people I don't get along with, and pretty much the reason I've never been involved in SF fandom in Stockholm, so I don't see them nearly as frequently.
There is also, I think, an effect that when you already belong to one kind of minority there's less social resistance to joining another. Which might make it easier for LBGT people to join, for example, SF fandom (and I note that there also seem to be more LBGT people in gaming and wicca as well).
no subject
I think there's a lot of truth in that. Not least because a minority sees new members as part of their small group and is thus less bothered by things that might upset larger groups. People are 'one of us' and hence, not 'one of them'.
no subject
It's the first I recall, if one excludes drag comedy acts, though I don't watch that much television.
The alternative is that fandom runs to the same % as the rest of the world, but lesbigay people are more able to claim their identity openly among fans?
This is my hypothesis.
no subject
At one con. I went to, I stayed with a lovely guy who had a very long experience of con.-going (mostly fantasy). He said that a large percentage of fans that he knows were bullied in some way or other at school, and surmised that we stand out as targets because of our different mindset. (This is outside of sexual orientation.)
Being bullied is a horrible experience and I think that, when one is bullied, it makes one more sensitive to other people's feelings - and sufferings - and want to help rather than pull up the drawbridge and keep them outside.
Does this make any sort of sense?
--
no subject
I think there is something to this theory, although my gut says it's too simplistic as stated.
no subject
experience of con.-going (mostly fantasy). He said that a large
percentage of fans that he knows were bullied in some way or other at
school, and surmised that we stand out as targets because of our
different mindset. (This is outside of sexual orientation.)
This is what I call the 'Asperger's theory' of fandom.
Fans seem to run high on people who are borderline Aspergers. I can think of a couple of friends who are fairly classic examples. People who find it harder to read other people well are probably more likely to be bullied at school, find it harder to form relationships in general and tend to fit well into fandom where the 'rules' are easier to work out and to follow. Fandom required a knowledge of books and TV which involve characters in the abstract. They also provide instant fodder for conversations. You can easily spend half an hour discussing alien economics or the sex appeal of Jack O'Neill.
no subject
Like Calle, I agree that Neo-Pagans attract a lot of LGBT people--and these are the people who want to search for different ideas, who are brainy and do a lot of research--and thus are more likely to be more open-minded towards all sorts of sexualities. Almost every Pagan I have met has been bisexual, the heterosexuals might even be in a minority there. And Doctor Who has a huge gay fanbase (perhaps because the fanbase is mostly male and not that 10% of the population), whereas with B7 fans we actually have lots of women at conventions and a *lot* of them I know to be bisexual or gay. I think that it's something within geekiness itself--always searching for new information, whether it's science (fiction) or psychology, spirituality, sexuality, you name it... people using their brains a lot, hungering for new stuff and their minds opening the more educated they get.
no subject
Heretic!!!! He's barely out of the door and you are messing with my OTP!
FF, appalled (and amused)
no subject
CrichtonCameron, and thought, if I moved Vala out of the way... Besides, it seems fair, what with that little thing has going with Harry. {g}There, now. Is that better? 8-)
--
no subject
Seriously, it is a very lovely icon but it was a bit of a shock to my sensitive system.
FF, a delicate flower, that I am.
no subject
--
no subject
no subject
If you nag me, I might even get around to putting my two Harry novels up on the web. You'll never guess in a decade whom I paired him with there. (I didn't intend it, the characters took things into their own hands)
I really really must get around to writing volume 3 someday.
no subject
Consider yourself nagged. 8-)
You'll never guess in a decade whom I paired him with there. (I didn't intend it, the characters took things into their own hands)
It's often the way. LOL!
--
no subject
no subject
I really am interested in your Harry novels! Can I send my address in some way not public, please? Thank you. 8-)
--
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Mmm, scruffyDanny!
FF, sad geek.
no subject
no subject
--
no subject
F/F was definitely around first on UK TV in general, and probably scifi too. The famous f/f kiss in Brookside happened in 1993. According to various queer/telly websites, there've also been lesbian (Brookside) and gay (The Bill) wedding plots.
Disclaimer: I don't watch soaps, honest, but I was aware of the debates around the various TV shows.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Ah well, I guess SF can't claim to have broken much new ground there then. (Leastways, not TV SF)
no subject
no subject
I agree that TV seems to be much warier of long-term gay relationships. Even in Babylon 5, where it's made clear that gay marriage is legal, we never meet an established gay couple; a scene between Ivanova and Talia is cut just when it looks as if they will kiss, and though it's implied they spend a night together we don't see them in bed, only Talia waking up and reaching out for Ivanova to find she's already gone. And the very next day they're parted in extremely painful circumstances, so it's not exactly a positive message. Gabrielle/Xena scores because it's semi-explicit and long-term.
no subject
In Australia, the first kiss was m/m, on No. 96 back in 1971. Viewers had to wait another year for an f/f kiss, on The Box in 1972.
no subject
I hate the episode- it *is* a good kiss, but I find it intensely annoying that having established that in the 24th Century homosexual love isn't forbidden love, they have to tie themselves in knots - and toss Trill continuity out the window - in order to have a reason why their planned non-forbidden same-sex love should be forbidden love.
It doesn't help that Terry Farrell's acting isn't up to the job, and she has less than zero chemistry with the other girl.
no subject
no subject
I think sf fans a generally people who dont care so much what other people think, and as a consequence are more willing to discuss their sexuality if it differs from "the norm".