watervole: (books)
Judith Proctor ([personal profile] watervole) wrote2012-09-11 12:41 pm

E-book ethics

 Here's an interesting question – I would not normally consider giving somebody else a copy of an e-book that I have bought. However, what if it is a book that I didn't like? If it were a paper book, I would have no hesitation in passing it on.
In this case, I bought a gay romance – which is reasonably well-written – but when I got well into the plot, it turned out to feature zombies. The zombies were not mentioned in the blurb, and I would not have bought the book if they had been.
Is it therefore ethical to give someone else a copy of my DRM free e-book – assuming that there is anyone out there who actually wants to read a gay romance featuring zombies…
matgb: Artwork of 19th century upper class anarchist, text: MatGB (Default)

[personal profile] matgb 2012-09-11 03:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes. Your property, you paid for it.

There's probably a legal reason why it shouldn't be done, but that's because the law's messed up, part of the point of pushing for DRM free stuff is to allow people to sell on, or give away, their property once they're done with it.

Publishing houses don't like it for the same reason publishers tried to block 2nd hand bookshops and similar.
linda_joyce: (Default)

[personal profile] linda_joyce 2012-09-11 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I can't see any reason why, you paid for it it's yours. My only question is How do you do it?
kerravonsen: glass half full of water: Half Full (Half Full)

[personal profile] kerravonsen 2012-09-12 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
Perfectly ethical, if you remove your own copies of the book afterwards.

[identity profile] alex-holden.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 11:58 am (UTC)(link)
Morally, I'd say it was OK if you delete your copy. Legally the license may forbid transfer of ownership.

[identity profile] emmzzi.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 12:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with this.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 03:49 pm (UTC)(link)
It seems logical to me, too.

[identity profile] esmeraldus-neo.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
If I didn't retain a copy I would have no compunctions about passing it on. There are books I have bought SO many times...

[identity profile] luckykaa.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
While I can get behind this, there's a problem in that pure digital copies aren't really the same as physical copies, but we want to treat them as though they are. When the copy is tied to a physical medium, it seems perfectly logical that you can give it away.

When it's pure data, it's logical that we just make copies. The problem with this is that it's unfair on the author. Deleting your own copy doesn't feel as though it makes it any more fair on the author, since if one keeps it, there's presumably not a lot of chance that anyone would read it. And we end up with a bizarre situation where we only actually share things that aren't any good rather than sharing things that deserve to be shared.

Don't really have a solution. This is more a ramble to the effect that digital copies being different from physical copies is something that more people need to think about because I don't think the current way of thinking about things is really the best way to balance the rights of the author and the reader.

[identity profile] lexin.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 12:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with Alex - though don't pass it to me, I can't stand zombies, either.

So many of these gay romances include werewolves, zombies and vampires, and all of them bore me stiff. I can just about cope with well done ghosts, or magic powers.
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[identity profile] alex-beecroft.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 12:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I would have thought it was OK as long as you deleted your copy afterwards. Morally, anyway. Legally, I don't know.

[identity profile] oreouk.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 01:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, that fun divide between morality and legality. I would come down on it not being immoral to do so because you have not read the entire tale, do not intend to retain a copy of it and this is society's understanding of what it is moral to do with a written story.

The main quibble I would have with the position would be if it cost noticeably less than a dead tree equivalent of the same publication, because if it did then I think in choosing to spend the lower amount on the purchase of the tale one of the things you were choosing not to pay for was the right to pass the publication on when you're done. The fact that you (IIRC) bought an e version due to it being more readable by you in that format would be irrelevant to that quibble.

Legally definitely not, but you know that. And it is where as a librarian I have a big problem with the shifting of publications to e versions, because rarely does the price reflect the fact that such a shift actually comes with restrictions on usage that a physical object does not come with.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 01:15 pm (UTC)(link)
This particular book is not available as a dead-tree publication. The publisher only handles e-books.

[identity profile] oreouk.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 01:41 pm (UTC)(link)
In which case I'd probably be comparing the price to the median price for a dead tree book of that nature or length if I wanted some yardstick to use to measure where I drew my morality line, but it's definitely trickier.

'Do I feel the book was sold at a sufficiently high price that it's pretty much what I would expect to have paid for a dead tree edition of same if it was available in that format' sort of a thing. If it cost £5 or less then probably not moral. If it cost £7 or more then probably I'd be comfortable feeling that I had been asked to buy a book, regardless if it was delivered to me in hard or soft copy. £5-7 being middle ground for me to decide based on the length. All price bars being adjustable to reflect any given individual's knowledge of a book and it's marketplace and the popularity of the author (the latter being a factor more for 'this person is popular enough that if they were being published in hard copy then the time frame when I bought the book is in that time frame when it's non-existant dead tree edition would have been a hard back', because that moves the price bars more than other factors).

I'm improvising here, but does that make sense?

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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
There's also length to consider. This was definitely more of a novella than the novel – it probably wouldn't have seen publication in dead-tree format owing to its length.
It costs less than 5 pounds, but I think that was mainly because of its length.

[identity profile] rockwell-666.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Since (I presume) you're not planning on keeping it, then I would have no ethical problem with this, it's no different to my POV from, as you say, passing on the paper copy via eg Book Mooch.

Copying it and giving to someone else would be unethical (and illegal of course).

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Someone has to.

It's unethical. You bought the book on a certain agreement, your agreed with it, so you are going back on your word by doing something else. You know this, because if you didn't, then you wouldn't have asked the question.

My ebook is DRM free, so... was that a mistake?

[identity profile] jon-a-five.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Well I try authors with second hand copies and then may buy new copies of their books in future. If this guy is ebook only how are people going to try him?

Mind you I say if it was rubbish and the blurb was misleading them fuck 'em :D

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 06:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I suppose the answer to someone who uses second hand books as introductions to authors' work is a) you'll have to join the 21st century, or b) we need to create a second hand ebook website.

[identity profile] rockwell-666.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
@davidwake

"It's unethical. You bought the book on a certain agreement, your agreed with it, so you are going back on your word by doing something else."

No, what's unethical (and probably not legally enforceable) is the sort of nonsense that you find in End User Licence Agreements: "By buying this/ downloading this/ clicking on this you accept a whole load of BS which we will try to use to intimidate you into thinking that your normal legal rights do not apply"!

The only reason that software companies, e-book companies and the like have never tried to enforce such EULAs is that they don't dare, because they'll most likely find case after case being thrown out of court as being in breach of established rights or simply not enforceable in the jurisdiction of the person they're trying to use it against.

PS The EULA of this message says that by reading it you agree to send me £100. I can take cash, cheque or credit cards ;-)

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It is strange that book publishers tried all the same tricks that the music industry so graphically demonstrated don't work. DRM irritates your readership, which is why I didn't use it myself and I have no intention of doing so.

However, their 'wrong' doesn't excuse other wrongs. The correct response to EULAs is not to buy the product and tell the supplier why. (And I couldn't agree with your EULA because you didn't supply an opt out.)

Just because the various EULAs are un-policeable, doesn't mean they can be flouted. Not legally enforceable doens't mean ethical. (They probably are legally enforceable, I bet lawyers wrote them, but it's not financially viable because those same lawyers charge a lot.)

Everyone was agreeing so I did decide to play Devil's Advocate, but I think my points are fair.

[identity profile] rockwell-666.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)
@davidwake:

EULAs in England and Wales would most likely be subjet to the Unfair Contract Terms Act which basically says that one party to the contract cannot insist on terms applicable to the other party which are not similarly applicable to them, so simply saying "these are the terms on which you buy our product, take it or leave it" is not acceptable.

And I beg to differ, an EULA which is not legally enforceable is not ethical for the same reason of it being an Unfair Contract, trying to force the consumer to accept terms which are in breach of their established rights.

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 06:41 am (UTC)(link)
"Most likely"?

I didn't mean to say that an EULA is ethical. I don't think they are.

Is it that we all do this? Digital material is easy to copy and copyright increasingly impossible to police, so we all do it and thus are we simply making up ethical frameworks to justify ourselves?

If I'm selling five beans and demand a cow, then that's unethical because you are over pricing. If you then run off with five beans saying "ha, ha, you were unethical, so I'm not going to pay anything" then perhaps I deserved it, but you are still stealing.

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 11:15 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with this comment: if the licence agreement precluded passing the book on, then you can't (ethically) just decide to ignore that because you didn't enjoy reading it.

How much it does or doesn't harm/benefit the author, the publisher or the wellbeing of the world in general, and other such considerations of expediency, are academic. You shouldn't buy things under restrictive licence agreements if you don't intend to abide by them.

[identity profile] vicarage.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 11:36 am (UTC)(link)
To worry about licences would be to read them, and life's too short. When asked I blat away yes,yes until they go away, as you know an answer No will drop you out of the system, rather than allow a point-by-point discussion of the law.

The marvels of the interweb is someone will read the licence, blog about it and raise a storm that causes the provider to change their ways, all with me doing nothing.

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 11:41 am (UTC)(link)
Deliberate, or even hurried, ignorance of the law is no defence.

[identity profile] vicarage.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 12:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess there are 4 levels of control

1) Arbitary restrictions imposed by seller, which are unenforeceable. EULAs, Terms and conditions etc

2) Contract Law which trumps 1

3) Criminal Law which works with 2

4) Ethics.

99% of the population have never studied 1-3, and most couldn't understand how its formulated anyway, so they rely on 4

1-2 don't matter for most transactions, where the damages shouldn't exceed the purchase price. You employ a professional when buying a house to check things, and might want to worry about terms when buying a new car or building an extension, but otherwise life's too short.

3 matters if a lot if you get it wrong, but the current system does a fair job of only stiffing the dodgy

4 is what matters day-to-day, in loads of micro transactions, controlling our self-esteem through guilt. But what feels 'right' may have no relation to 1-3.

But its that pit-of-the-stomach feeling that matters in life, and that's were the right to deal with our possessions rests. And it feels right to me to pass on something I've bought to others, free or charged, provided genuinely relinquish it.

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 01:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Of course, Ethics should trump law. There are plenty of countries which demand actions that are legal, but unethical, and "I was only following orders" is no excuse.

However people in those countries have problem opting out. You can opt out of EULAs by not buying the product.

A lot of certain individual's pit-of-the-stomach feelings are just plain wrong. e.g. The Angels told me to murder him.

I've a 'gut feeling' that some of this does sound to me like rationalisation. Sorry, but it does.

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 04:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I think people's personal pit-of-the-stomach feelings vary quite considerably.

I'm not really that conscience-bothered about the minor wrong of passing on an unread e-book, and would probably do it without a qualm. But I would never consider evading income tax on my earnings, for example. Yet plenty of other people seem to be able to do that quite cheerfully.

So I think advocating use of those 'it feels right' feelings as the chief guidelines for behaviour is potentially a bit societally risky.

[identity profile] vicarage.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 04:58 pm (UTC)(link)
And as any R4 listener knows, morality is impossible without the guidance of organised religion....

I think for big things we need the guidance of the law, but [livejournal.com profile] watervole is pretty safe making up her own mind about gay zombie ebook disposal.
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[identity profile] watervole.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I've come across plenty of moral athiests on radio 4...

[identity profile] vicarage.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry, my ire was directed at the kind of Thought for the Day religious leader who's idea of tolerance is to accept other faiths, but can't abide atheists.

(I've not heard TFTD for a decade now, and feel so much better for it!)

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2012-09-12 11:45 am (UTC)(link)
That is certainly a sensible practical position, and I wouldn't argue with it at all from that point of view.

But as [livejournal.com profile] watervole was specifically asking what was ethical, I think that needs to be a bit stricter.

Of course, it's unethical for publishers to try and sneak (arguably) unfair agreements past lazy users. But two wrongs don't make a right, as the wise old sage (my mum) used to say.

[identity profile] davidwake.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
This thread connected a few thoughts and has made me post in my own LiveJournal.

[identity profile] vicarage.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
In the same way dead tree book prices are higher because people know there is some residual secondhand value, the worth of a drm free book includes they fact you can gain benefit from passing it on. Publishers who force you to give up that right will lose sales as people become more cautious in what they buy.

The passing on of unwanted books may increase subsequent sales. That author won't sell to you again, but the recipient might

So go ahead

[identity profile] dumain.com (from livejournal.com) 2012-09-11 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
So you're seeking to dispose of this "book" because of the abominations against God and nature it describes? I didn't realise you were so judgemental.

[identity profile] raspberryfool.livejournal.com 2012-09-11 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't see why you shouldn't pass the book on and delete your copy. You've paid for it and the author has received (presumably) a royalty. I see no moral problem with that.

[identity profile] undyingking.livejournal.com 2012-09-17 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
I know this is probably far too late by now, but I guess the most ethical path would be to explain the situation to the rightsholder and ask if they mind you passing it on to a keener reader. If they say No, then you have to respect that. But hopefully they would be sensible enough to say OK.