Being British

[watervole]

Interesting to see that the poll results from yesterday largely match my own reactions. 94% of people who replied felt that their nationality was British, not UK. (Even people who feel that they live in the United Kingdom tend to regard their nationality as British)

(But I should have included boxes for Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish)

A strong majority of non-Scots/Welsh thought of themselves as living in England, not 'United Kingdom' or 'Great Britain'.

I first noticed that other people didn't understand my nationality when I visited the USA several years ago (before I gave up flying). On entering the country, I filled in a form stating my nationality as British and was told that this was incorrect and that I had to put UK.

It was MY damn nationality, not theirs. It really pissed me off.

I find the same problem with drop down menus that want my address. 'England' is not an option. 'United Kingdom' is the only choice I have.

Thinking about it, I realise that I consider my nationality to be British, but my ethnic identity to be English. That must have shifted at some point as I'm sure I used to think of my ethnicity as British. That may relate to my interest in folk traditions, as I'm aware of distinct different traditions in different parts of the British Isles.

So, to conclude, we're an odd bunch. Most of us live in England, have British nationality and our monarch is ruler of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

(If you really want to go crazy, try the same questions for the Channel Islands... They're not part of the United Kingdom, but are still under the British crown - they're actually the remnant of the Dutchy of Normandy. I wonder what nationality they have to tick when they enter America...)

Comments

[drplokta]

The 6% who said their nationality is UK might want to check their passports.

The forms you fill in when entering the US don't ask for your nationality, they ask for the country of your citizenship, which is a different question, and to which the answer is UK (which in any case saves writing five characters when filling in the form).

[oreouk.livejournal.com]

But it's also a question of linguistics, I'd think. British is a linguistically comfortable term to use - how would I express the same thing with United Kingdom? I am not UK-ish and 'a member of the United Kingdom' is clunky. Thus British is the term I would use to express the concept of being a member of the UK without really considering the distinction between Britain and the UK.

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

agreed - it is a noun versus adjective problem.

[willplant.livejournal.com]

de-lurking via circuitous f-list route

i was born in Guernsey, my parents are both English (so for some I am not a 'real Guern' not being of n-th generation stock.)

from memory (and i don't have it to hand) my passport is from "Great Britain and the Islands" and is signed from the Lieutenant-Governor of Guernsey in the name of Her Majesty.

no idea what i'd put in the box for the US?

I probably consider myself British - though claiming not to be English has been a useful conversation piece over the years - particularly with the whole remnant of the Duchy of Normandy issue.

but like many people I struggle with the concept of being English because of odious characters like Griffin.

Being a big fan of Show of Hands I was unimpresed that their song Roots was appropriated by the BNP - as far as I am concerned [and i believe this was Steve Knightley's intention] the line "it's my flag too and i want it back" is directed squarely at the Nick Griffins of this world.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

That's my understanding of the song too.

[willplant.livejournal.com]

slightly off topic i found this the other day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OCtALC4nJI&feature=player_embedded

A very well done video guide to the daleks in the style of the Hithchikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Graphically brilliant although the voice over doesn't quite work.

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

"but like many people I struggle with the concept of being English because of odious characters like Griffin."

Jeez. We don't need to consider HIM when defining our nationality! Don't get yourself derailed by bigots. If you do, then the reasonable people will have to deny they are English and that would be ridiculous.

[gaspodex.livejournal.com]

I still use (and always will) English. I am English, I was born in England. Its still a country. I dont mind being British - but I am English.

[sigisgrim.livejournal.com]

Wot this man said, though I quite like being British and it is the term I generally use, primarily because more people from outside these islands seem to understand it. But I am also defenitely English. (But also Scottish through both parents having Scottish ancestory.)

[seph-hazard.livejournal.com]

Yes, this - I'm English, ta :-)

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

As I said, I didn't fill in the poll, because I wanted (a) more options, and (b) square boxes so I could tick more than one option per question.

If I'd forced myself to go for a single option, it would have been UK (or one of the variants thereon), because I much prefer that term to Great Britain. But the second question made me hesitate, because it seemed to be looking for an adjective, and as oreouk says, there isn't an obvious adjective from UK. If it had been phrased as "what would you write on a US entry form?", I would have felt comfortable using my preferred term, UK, because such forms don't usually demand that sort of grammatical logic - and on a US form, in particular, you wouldn't expect their own citizens to write in "American", even if some of them forget that covers a multitude of nationalities outside the US.

It's amusing that you came up against the issue in that sort of context, because it's usually when dealing with foreigners that I'm forced to fall back on "Great Britain" and "British", as they're unfamiliar with the idea of the United Kingdom. (I don't think I can even translate it except into French - Royaume Uni - and even there I tend to address my postcards to "Grande Bretagne" on the theory that la Poste is more likely to understand that.)

I wonder if the use of the "uk" suffix in internet addresses has made the concept more familiar abroad, and I could now get away with writing "UK" on postcards, whether the local postal services know its expanded form or not?

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

Now you come to mention it, the Teach Yourself Slovene book I used over the summer listed Anglija and Velike Britanije (and Scotland, but I'm afraid I can't remember how that's spelt) but not the United Kingdom, nor Wales, nor Northern Ireland. I thought it was odd at the time but had forgotten.

Wikipedia has a relevant though not exhaustive page (http://pam.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_various_languages_(Q-Z)#U), if you're curious.

[were-gopher.livejournal.com]

I was playing on a Europe wide MMORPG a while back and asked where I came from and replied UK and the other player asked if I was Ukranian? Therefore I think writing UK as part of a postal address runs the risk of getting your stuff sent to the Ukraine.

[aeshna_uk]

I generally describe myself as British - I have a fairly mixed background (Welsh grandmother on one side; Irish great-grandparents on the other) and it's a lot easier to explain to folks from other places. If finding myself in conversation with other Brits, though, I'm English - I was born in England and have lived here all my life so far, and I don't see why that can't be an identity just as valid as Welsh or Scots. I can't be doing with those who get twitchy at the thought of flying the English flag because of its appropriation by less savoury types - it's my flag too, dammit! Not sure where I'll be living come the World Cup next year, but the Very Big Flag will be coming out at some point.... ;)

Hmm, as an odd little addendum to this, a couple of years back I spent two months on a university ship in the Pacific. I had variations on the following conversation at least 3 times with different (though always white American) people:

"Hi! So, where are you from?"

"Oh, I'm British."

"Cool! Where's your family from?"

"Britain. I'm English."

"I mean, where are they from originally?"

"Er, England."

"No, I mean -"

"Um... my grandmother was Welsh?"

"Oh! Cool!"

For some reason that seemed to be an acceptable answer, though I have no doubt that a couple of them had absolutely no idea where Wales actually was. :) To be fair, there were plenty of other people on board who had no trouble with the concept of Britain or England, but there is a definite subset of people out there who don't quite get that we English-speaking easily-sunburnt types might actually be indigenous somewhere.... :)

(If you want a really interesting take on all this sort of national/ethnic identity thing, ask mingmerciless about Malaysia. We were out there a few weeks back and it's a real eye-opener!)

[seph-hazard.livejournal.com]

How...odd. Especially coming from Americans. "Er, you came from here, dear, not the other bloody way around..."

[aeshna_uk]

It really threw me! It was as if I needed to qualify my nationality in some way. I suppose I could have rattled through a list of everyone who'd ever invaded ("well, I'm sure there's some Roman in there somewhere..."). :)

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

I find the same problem with drop down menus that want my address. 'England' is not an option. 'United Kingdom' is the only choice I have.

It seems a bit unreasonable to expect such forms to include options for variant ethnic identity preferences, if they're just asking for your actual address.

I know that eg. many Catalans don't consider themselves to be Spanish, but for postal delivery purposes their country is still 'Spain', so that's all I'm going to offer them on an address form.

[dumain.com (from livejournal.com)]

I have to say I'm not to bothered being half Scottish, half
American while having lived in England almost my
entire life I don't identify too strongly with anything.
Scottish only gets referenced if some English
people are having a "more northern than you" competition.

Given the opportunity I usually try to get both England and United Kingdom
on address labels.

[sugoll.livejournal.com]

Those readers in Scotland might beg to differ. Or at least take exception.

(Being an English person living in Scotland, I've noticed that English media tend to refer to the English (when the subject is English) or the British (when the subject isn't), while the Scottish media tend to refer to the Scots (when the subject is Scottish), and, um, I'm not sure, beyond that. But the British seem to be doing it subconsciously, while the Scottish media seem to be doing it pointedly. That is, the Scottish are incensed at being sidelined so often by the English, and the English are completely oblivious to the fact.)

[temeres.livejournal.com]

Unlike some people here I will always opt to describe myself as British rather than English, even though I am English. I don't know why I loathe and despise the whole concept of 'England' so much but I suspect it may have something to do with football.

As for ethnic identity, I am variously liable to think of myself as placental mammal, vertebrate or eukaryote, depending on how inclusive I'm feeling.

[sugoll.livejournal.com]

I can relate to that to some degree.

katlinel and I spent a couple of weeks in the NE USA, and were kind of freaked out by the number of US flags on display (it was just after 9/11, but even so). When we came back home through Gatwick, we encountered a souvenir shop bung-full of union flags. Was it a patriotic sight? Nope. It was trashy, gaudy, tat.

[aeshna_uk]

Airport shops (and others to attract tourists) tend to cater to a particular, non-local, market, so I let them off a bit. And I love football, so I have no issues about those flags! ;) But I know what you mean about the flags in some parts of the US, though - I was out in Nebraska in late 2007 and it seemed like every tiny diner and gas station was in competition to fly the biggest flag they could lay their hands on (and some were huge). I'd been in China a few weeks earlier and commented to my friend that it reminded me of all the Chairman Mao statues and portraits I'd seen all over the place there! It's just one of those odd cultural things, but the only time you see so many flags over here is when there's a major sporting event on. :)

[vjezkova.livejournal.com]

This is a very intriguing topic! I am a Czech but I have plenty of friends in UK. I brought an interesting book concerning also this problem from our library - haha it is called "The British Centre" officially - "Watching the English" by Kate Fox. I tell you, it is INTERESTING!:-)

[watervole.livejournal.com]

Aargh! Never, ever say "I have friends in UK". It's either "I have friends in the UK" or "I have friends in Britain."

Same with 'the' USA, or 'America'.

I think I remember reading that book - it was interesting.

[vjezkova.livejournal.com]

Arrrgh indeed, how stupid of me, I do know the rule but I was too confident again...*creeping away ashamed* :-)

[hawkeye7.livejournal.com]

Us foreigners think of England as being like a state of the UK, similar to the way that New South Wales is a self-governing state of Australia (which of course is also still under the British crown). But I'm not sure that this is right. I know that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments but does England?

[sugoll.livejournal.com]

England's had its own parliament for a very long time. That's been part of the problem. :-)

[watervole.livejournal.com]

England does not have its own parliament. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have differing degrees of autonomy.

I wouldn't think of England as a state of the UK. England is a country in its own right.

The UK is a collection of different countries under the same monarch - all have existed as independent entities at some point in their history (except Northern Ireland which was originally part of Ireland)

[raspberryfool.livejournal.com]

"...New South Wales is a self-governing state of Australia (which of course is also still under the British crown).

The British monarch rules in Australia as King or Queen of Australia and has since Australia became a constitutional monarchy in 1901. This is the same in Canada, Jamaica and New Zealand.

The U.K. Parliament is at Westminster. Scotland has its own parliament at Holyrood with limited powers whilst Northern Ireland and Wales each have an assembly, again with limited powers. Regional assembles have been proposed for England - IMO a waste of taxpayers' money.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

BEfore you get totally confused by different answers - there is an English parliament, but the Welsh, Scots, etc. all get to have members in it.

They also have their own separate parliaments, but we don't. Hence the problem...

[sugoll.livejournal.com]

I'm with Dr P on this one. The one advantage of being questioned about such things by US Immigration is that - practically by definition - they're holding the definitive answer (your passport) in their hands at the time.

Look, it even has a section for "Nationality". Clue: it doesn't include "United" or "Kingdom".

No matter what their opinion happens to be, you don't need to supply yours, because HMG have been kind enough to put theirs into a handy little booklet, along with some biometric details and a fucking sinister looking photo.

That last bit might just be me.

[headgardener.livejournal.com]

Live in: London, England, UK

Citizenship/nationality: Australian

Ethnic/local identity: Tottenhamite, Londoner, Australian

Family extraction: Scottish, Cornish, Ulster Scots, Orkney, and a bit of English...

[twistedanimator.livejournal.com]

Never really ever considered myself English, always British, however often just say English when abroad cos it skips a whole load of problems. Always enjoyed being half Polish and loved the bits cultural I did epxerience (ie mushrooming and drinking)Though people I partied with in the 80's did tend to get a bit confused when I said I'm going home to go mushrooming with my Dad this weekend :)
I do find it really really weird though to be able to buy polski foods and stuff I could only ever get when I visited my Dad now for sale in the shop opposite my house...